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"ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS"
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Pointless Argument
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| berrymountain, please drop this argument. I suspect that you are a better person than the xenophobe you're making yourself out to be. | |
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Danie
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You are offended that I inquired as to the citizenship of employees running a restaurant, and attack me. You also attacked another on the blog regarding Kiersa, a little girl wo is sick. Since you're so INTELLIGENT and WELL EDUCATED, how about you define "xenophobe." Also, explain the application of the word in regard to your sentence use. |
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RE: Danie
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Outlandish, unfounded remarks deserve appropriate replies. I wish I was intelligent and well educated. I'm still working on those things. Look up the word in the dictionary. You might learn something about what you project. |
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Significant digits. . .
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| Your figures are so exact, surely you have multiple, well-documented, cross-referenced sources. Please share them with the rest of us. | |
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The figures change every minute...
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released to the public so they don't need to mine the numerous reports themselves. Only the most respected sources are used. Significant effort is made to provide what is determined to be the most reliable data and as such is published in good-faith to maintain integrity of data. We find that the data used is sufficiently reliable for the purposes of this site. The methodology; find the data as far back as available, total to the current date and project the rate of increase based on the established growth rate. Some counters are formulated with their beginning numbers that date back several years. Others, because data was not available begin more recently. The beginning year will be noted with each counter data source. Trend data from the previous years are used to set the clock update rates. The data is reviewed periodically yet because of the nature of numbers related to illegal immigration some information on this site may contain minor inaccuracies. As new data becomes available each counter will be modified for accuracy. Information may be changed or updated without notice. ImmigrationCounters.com provides the Site as a free source of useful information to the general public. It is the only known Site that posts the totals real-time and displays this in the most basic format. More counters will be added as the data becomes available. As a result of illegal immigration some government agencies have benefited from growth in their programs to meet the expanding demands of their services. Some businesses are temporarily benefiting from illegal hiring. However, because of the increased costs of social services, law enforcement, lost revenue due to displaced legal hires, lost revenue from tax fraud and remittances, no sound research supports a net financial gain to the country. There are no free social services, those costs are shifted over into higher taxes and insurance premiums. Non-profit services provided to illegal immigrants shifts resources that could be used for legal immigrants and citizens. The majority of research finds that illegal immigration is bad for America and often the illegal immigrants themselves. The intent of the immigration laws and that of the nation's founders are being violated on a scale few could have imagined. It may be presumptuous for the government to assume it can implement a new and expanded amnesty guest worker program when its been unable or unwilling to manage the existing immigration laws. This site is not intended to foster hatred or discrimination towards anyone, only to provide reliable information so the public can make informed decisions on their own. The ramifications of illegal immigration goes beyond numbers and money and impacts all aspects of society. This topic is covered in greater detail through the books and links provided. The public needs to be aware of some of the Politically Correct terms or "code words" used by activists and policy makers to avoid the stigma of the word "illegal." Foreign-Born Workforce, Law Abiding Undocumented, Undocumented Workers, Undocumented Immigrants, Undocumented Aliens, Undocumented Migrants, Unauthorized Population, Unauthorized Workers, Foreign-Born Population, Unauthorized Migrants, First Generation, Non-Citizens. Activists use of the term "immigrant rights" does not apply to illegal immigrants who have no legal rights in the country, only human rights. It's also important to realise that because of massive document and I.D. fraud, when an undocumented person is caught they're actually some of the most documented people in the world, it's just all fraudulent. ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS IN COUNTRY, Many more than 10M and many are unemployed or are dependents: Background: The popular myth that there are "10-11M undocumented workers in the country" is misleading, disingenuous and blatantly false. That figure fails to factor in the chain migration unemployed dependent family members (wives, grandparents, migrant children, migrant girlfriends, single mothers, anchor babies), the adult unemployed, those incarcerated, transients and fugitives. After the former Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) was directed by Congress to stop counting in 1981, even the conservative numbers of the 2000 Census Bureau (CB) estimated at that time the total illegal immigration population was about 8 million. That figure was never intended to only represent the number of workers as is incorrectly quoted today. Because of the nature of illegal immigration only the nearest estimates are possible. Illegal immigration generally falls into one of two categories: those who entered the country illegally and those who were admitted legally as visitors or on temporary work status and overstayed their visa. The legal status of non-citizens is not routinely ascertained in censuses or surveys with sample sizes sufficient for making accurate national population estimates. An alien registration program at the INS, requiring all resident aliens to report their status annually was discontinued by Congress in 1981. It is unrealistic to expect the Census Bureau to locate the majority of illegal immigrants in the country, nor is it realistic to expect illegal immigrants to fill out census forms. By not revealing their legal status and other personal information, they seek to avoid coming to the government‘s attention. To compound the problem, government officials and researchers often underestimate the effectiveness of the communication networks and the scale of documentation fraud among the illegal immigrant population. The following article highlights how the government has failed to address document fraud. http://www.cis.org/articles/2002/back302.html In spite of these limitations, the Census Bureau did develop some estimates of their own. Their estimates at the time of the 2000 Census indicated that the illegal immigration population was about 8 million. Using this number, it can be reasonably estimated that the illegal-alien population grew by about half a million a year in the 1990s. This estimate is derived from a draft report given to the House Immigration Subcommittee by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS) that estimated the illegal population was 3.5 million in 1990. For the illegal population to have reached 8 million by 2000, the net increase had to be 400,000 to 500,000 per year during the 1990's. The Census Bureau currently estimates a net increase of 500,000 illegal immigrants annually and a current population of about 10.5 million. This number represents one of the lower estimates and is disputed by many in the industry. In a document by The Pew Hispanic Center, “Estimates of the Size and Characteristics of the Undocumented Population“, March 2005. They estimated about 11.1 million illegal aliens the previous year and 11.5 to 12 million as of March 2006. The March 2006 estimate found that illegal immigrants have a total of about 3.1 million children who were born in the U.S, and are now U.S. citizens, other sources place this number at 5 million. The report is provided here. http://pewhispanic.org/reports/report.php?ReportID=44 On the high end of the spectrum are some private groups that randomly select single sources of data, such as an interview with a border patrol agent or with one elected official. Those sources have placed the numbers around 30 million. Until more data is provided, ImmigrationCounters.com does not yet side with the 30 million figure, yet notes that it may indeed be that high. ImmigrationCounters.com subscribes to estimates from the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) of 700,000 per year who enter illegally (includes children) or are visa overstay fugitives. The Pew Hispanic Center estimates 700,000-800,000 per year http://pewhispanic.org/files/reports/44.pdf . We also side with an independent report from Bear Stearns, “The Underground Labor Force Is Rising To The Surface," January 3, 2005. This report estimates the number to be around 20 million based on ancillary sources of data that provide evidence the rate of growth is much greater than the Census Bureau estimated. The Bear Stearns report is provided here. http://www.bearstearns.com/bscportal/pdfs/underground.pdf |
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RE: The figures change every minute...
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| Nice job cutting and pasting, berrymountain. | ||
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Nice try
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Excellent use of cut and paste. One website that assures you that only the best sources are used does not count as cross-referencing. You have no insight into those numbers that are ticking away on the screen. By their own admission they are taking old numbers and projecting them into the future. Extrapolation does not make for good statistics, especially to the degree of accuracy you claim. Since you seem to have abandoned your restaurant rant, I will renew my challenge here that you get off your butt and go do something productive for this country you are so keen to save. |
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Cut and Paste
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DANIE006, Just contacted a U.S. Marine in California. He said he would sure like to know "who" you are, and what your name is. U.S. Marines "protect" the United States from all enemies. You DANIE006 defend "Illegal Immigration," by attacking U.S. Citizens who oppose it for obvious reasons. Oh, he also chuckled at your impressive "NBC" position in the Marine Corp (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical Weapon Specialist.) He said each and every Marine and their job is important, and that every Marine is trained to perform specific tasks. That was your job. You were paid by U.S. Citizens, not Mexicans. AS NOTED IMMEDIATELY ABOVE: Once again..."DANIE006" postED, and a few minutes later "SOUTHWARD" posts, COMPLIMENTING DANIE006. My 1ST guess is: DANIE006 is SOUTHWARD. 2nd guess is: DANIE006 and SOUTHWARD are buddies sitting in the same room. You are desperate for attention DANIE006. Rather than supporting Illegal Immigrants in raping our country, you claim to be a U.S. Marine and attack me for posting facts. (The blogger asked for sites. No about to type each on individually.) |
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Whatever
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Berrymountain, you're paranoid. I'm finished participating with this thread because it is no longer constructive to carry on like this. Pretty soon, Pooterman will shut us down anyway. What do you think, southward? |
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RE: Cut and Paste
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| I think. . .that I apologize for getting sucked into an obvious troll and wasting everyone's time and bandwidth. I just thought it was wrong they could include the name of someone's business in a post like that. Still haven't said a word about immigrants. I guess if I'm not a real person they don't have to answer to that. Later. | ||
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U. S. Marine (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical Specialist), BDH Employee, Engineer, a regular "Joe" & a Dirt Farmer?
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Danie006, Per your comments and profile: 40 years old (marital status?), a U.S. Marine (NBC), GI BILL/College (Engineering degree/not specified),past employee of Bozeman Deaconess Hospital, and now apparently a dirt farmer. Wondering why you defend "Illegal Immigration." |
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RE: U. S. Marine (Nuclear, Biological, Chemical Specialist), BDH Employee, Engineer, a regular "Joe" & a Dirt Farmer?
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OK - I'm back to defend myself. Geez, it's like reading something written by Rush Limbaugh, spuriously false and misleading... I never said I worked for Bozeman Deaconess Hospital. Check back to my previous posts for proof. A few years ago I was employed by a medical group (not located in Montana) to do some design work; I learned a quite bit about how the medical system works and that's about it for my medical experience. About a year ago, I was fortunate enough to be able to retire. Occasionally I do odd mechanical engineering projects for my faithful past customers. Lately I've been tweaking procedures/protocols related to ISO 9000 and 14000 systems. We have a little farm with critters and we're also trying to grow stuff if the weather ever cooperates! I am a regular joe in that I try to always see the brighter side of life and the goodness in people. I've found that even the grouchiest folks are good deep down. ....that's me in a nutshell. I don't think I ever defended illegal immigration, per se, except I did mention that I had compassion for those folks trying to survive. |
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There are plenty of other far more important issues than this.
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| Why is illegal immigration suddenly such a big deal? It has been going on for decades now and suddenly it's a big deal to people. Is it because the Bush Administration has suddenly made it an issue? Personally, I think there are far more pressing issues that we are facing both as a country and as a society than people who come here illegally who are basically only looking for opportunities that they don't have in their own country. Does this excuse their actions? Absolutely not. So, why is it now suddenly such a hot button issue with people like you? And please don't cut and paste more propaganda or make anymore idiotic vague threats. | |
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Interesting ...
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Although berrymountain certainly seems to enjoy ruffling feathers, his figures seem to gibe with what I have investigated. danie006 and southward asked for sources which berrymountain supplied. Then they responded — not by refuting berrymountain's argument with their own figures and sources — but with a personal attack. Shouldn't the same rules of debate apply to all participants? Anyone who equates the desire for secure borders with racism has been indoctrinated with political correctness. Requiring legal emigration is not racist. The reason we focus so much on illegal aliens of Mexican descent is because the bulk of the people coming here illegally are coming from or through Mexico. If they were coming from Canada, we'd be talking about Canadians. For the record, I'm against the illegal Irish immigrants being given amnesty and/or special visas, too. http://www2.nysun.com/new-york/ahern-will-ask-congress-to-act-on-irish I am in favor of people emigrating here legally and learning English. They need to learn English so that they can fully participate as Americans and are not marginalized or taken advantage of by unscrupulous employers and attorneys. @dclxvinoise: It has always been a "big deal". Part of the answer is in your second sentence: "It has been going on for decades". There are so many illegals here now that it has been estimated that 10% of the population of Mexico is living in the U.S. Although they don't pay income tax, illegals tend to take the most from our system in terms of free medical care and services. It is also estimated that $90 billion is sent back to Mexico each year. That is money that is no longer circulating in the U.S. even as Americans are being taxed more and more. Politically, President Bush is very soft on secure borders and illegal immigration, as are Clinton, Obama, and McCain. It is a political football that neither party seems to want to touch. They probably don't want to be (unfairly) labelled 'racist' and are afraid of losing Latino votes. |
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RE: Interesting ...
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Hey - wait a minute. I never asked for statistical resources. Blame southward for that one : ) Check my posts. Besides, at a glance (and I state that albeit gingerly because I know it will come back to haunt me), it appears that the linked sites are imbalanced in their viewpoints; the Pew site less so than the Center for Immigration Studies. I'm sure if I took the time to dig, I could confirm my gut. Also, I challenge you to find a personal attack on berrymountain. I merely offered relatively objective observations and antitheses based on the information provided in the initial posts. Take a look at berrymountain's comments with the anger, the assumptive comments, and the name calling and then tell me if you think I was out of line with my retorts. heck, I thought I took it pretty easy on him/her; I called it as I saw it. However, I do agree about the English as a primary language thing. Frankly, the offering of something like 5 or 6 different languages on ballots , or any public matter in some areas of the country, seems a little over the top. Geez, I'm for including everyone into the Melting Pot when appropriate, but some of it has gotten out of hand. I also agree that the Bush and Clinton Administrations are/were been soft on illegal immigration, almost to the point where it is a real head-scratcher. Maybe their pro-NAFTA support has something to do with it? |
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Oops!
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Sorry, danie006, you have kept it pretty clean (although I did seem to see something about paranoia.) I too am put off by the belligerent tone of some of berrymountain's posts, and I apologize for my mistake. (I think my eyes were crossed by the time I waded through all the comments.) The Pew Hispanic Center is a project of the Pew Research Center which is quite reputable and fairly well known. They are "a nonpartisan 'fact tank' that provides information on the issues, attitudes and trends shaping America and the world." I'm not familiar with the Center for Immigration Studies but their information seems consistent with what I have seen elsewhere. Re: "I also agree that the Bush and Clinton Administrations are/were been soft on illegal immigration, almost to the point where it is a real head-scratcher. Maybe their pro-NAFTA support has something to do with it?" I think so, too. |
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RE: Oops!
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I still have nothing to say about illegal immigration, and I'm sorry if I stepped on toes somewhere. I don't know enough about the topic to debate, and you'll notice this is the first place I've mentioned it. I got sucked in over on the mom and pop restaurant discussion and it carried over here. There are three points I tried to make: 1) Using someone's business name 3 times in a post with words like hepatitis, rape, and fraud in between is not acceptable if at least for the fact that it will soon show up in search engine results. I wouldn't tolerate someone talking about our family's business that way, and I doubt many people would. No one has answered that point, and the post remains. 2) Those numbers are bogus. Even the "methodology" section breaks down into a rant. They should be able to cite their base values and formulas, and the format is sensationalist. I don't know the actual statistics but that's not the way to convince people of your argument. 3) I am a real person. That's it. I understand about the eyes crossed. I really would just like to talk about local restaurants. Good evening. |
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RE: Oops!
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1) I agree with you that the business name being used in conjunction with loaded words was disrespectful. 2) I suspect the top numbers came from this page: http://immigrationcounters.com/ They seem a little inflated to me, but not outlandishly so. The U.S. Census Bureau puts the number at 10 - 12 million illegal aliens, Congressman Tom Tancredo, Chairman of the Congressional Immigration Reform Caucus, estimates 18 million, and Bear Stearns (yes, that Bear Stearns) — generally considered very reliable — says it was 20 million as of 2005. So ... it would appear that the Bear Stearns number was the one used. 3) It would never occur to me that you aren't a real person. ;) |
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RE: Oops!
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"No one has answered that point, and the post remains." southward: If you find a post offensive or abusive, please mark it so. If enough other BozemanTalks readers feel the same way and actually mark it as such, then the post will be auto hidden from view. I will go and review the post, but I have gotten no complaints as of yet. Again, if any of you have a problem with a post please mark it as such. You all have the power to get rid of offensive posts. |
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please pardon the sarcasm
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illegal immigration is costing us lots of money?!? *gasp!* what's new? will someone please post some solutions? |
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"A Sword and a Shield"
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I posted facts, and was immediately "challenged" to supply citing and sourcing. I did so, in the form of cutting and pasting one article which points to legitimate sites for verification. The majority of illegal immigrants living in the United States, emigrate from south of the U.S. border, entering through "border states." This is simply a fact. The "fact" that most illegal immigrants come from south of the border, has nothing to do with "racism." The term "Racism" has become a weapon against U.S. Citizens, and used as a "Sword and a Shield," by those defending and defying illegal immigration. The costs of illegal immigration are paid for by every American Citizen who pays U.S. Federal Taxes. Solution: If illegal immigrants are not hired by U.S. Citizens, they will return to Mexico. Strict penalties for hiring illegal immigrants. Please understand, when an illegal immigrant is hired, he or she must provide a Social Security Number. Legitimate social security numbers are easily obtainable through public records, and other places. These numbers (along with all other information) are bought and sold daily by "Coyotes" who smuggle illegals into the country. An "Illegal Immigrant" typically will claim 10-12 dependant's when applying for work and filling out required forms. Within a couple of years, the real "victim" (a U.S. Citizen whose Social Security Number was used by an illegal) is contacted by the IRS (state/federal) and taxes for those wages are demanded. This is another form of "Identity Theft." Montana companies, mostly contractors are finding it lucrative to employ illegals, all the while "playing dumb." This practice is a "windfall" to the employers, but the real victims are the honest, hard working taxpayers. Stand up for Montana, and stand up for the United States of America for Pete's sake, and stop defending people who intentionally break our laws, and victimize our citizens. Entering the U.S. illegaly is the first illegal act, defying the laws of the United States of America. |
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illlegal immigration
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Illegal immigrants = criminals Their first act upon entering this country is breaking the LAW |
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You missed something
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| you missed on how much money the immigrants brought to the economy. How many do jobs Americans won't do. I think that if they commit crimes ship them home, but if they are productive citizens lets not waste public funds finding them. | |
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RE: You missed something
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Something else to consider: "When advanced economies admit ever larger numbers of unskilled workers (plus a chain of relatives through "family reunification"), they are importing poverty. The President says this is to do "the jobs Americans won't do". For the sake of argument, take him at his word. So why won't Americans do them? Because they're a great way to ensure you live in poverty. So we import foreigners to be our poor people. Can we import just the right number to ensure that poverty doesn't "grow"? Unlikely." —Mark Steyn at National Review Online responding to an opinion piece by Robert J. Samuelson in the Washington Post You can find the whole piece here: http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=OWE1YzlhZjIyMTk5MWI4NzM0ODEyYWI0MTM3MmY0ZDM= |
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CHOPSUI says "If they are productive citizens lets not waste public funds finding them."
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Chopsui, Illegal immigrants produce high profits for those who hire them. It is the rest of the taxpayers who pick up the REAL TAB. My guess is, you have never lived in a border state. These states (CA,NM,TX,AZ) also ENJOYED the "cheap labor" until it caught up with them. In small numbers, illegals are tolerable to most. But quietly "Coyotes" import more, and as the numbers grow, the aggression grows. Have you seen an American Flag burned on U.S. soil? I have... by illegal immigrants marching for their "rights." |
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RE: CHOPSUI says "If they are productive citizens lets not waste public funds finding them."
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Hey, Chopsui - don't sweat berrymountain's assumptions about your (lack of) personal experience. He/she did the same thing to me. I guess it is something to expect out of someone who passes judgment against others. Hope you sleep well at night, berrymountain. |
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Immigrants
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| Illegals are here because there are employers who will hire them. If that weren't the case, they wouldn't be here. So if there's a problem who is to blame? It's a lot easier to blame someone who is not local and might not speak our language instead of someone who e | |