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Depression 2
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Agree
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| I think beginning with the 60's (maybe even earlier) and the attitude of "do your own thing" thinking, people began to sluff off responsibilities to themselves and others and became very self-indulgent. So-called "free love" and the rapidly expanding use of drugs plunged us into an era of decadence from which we really haven't recovered. We continue to be in an age in which people want to keep "passing the buck" to others instead of stepping up and taking responsibility for their own actions. People also want to take the easy way out when things don't go according to how they think they should go. Hence, for example, all the failed marriages in which many were entered into too lightly in the first place. It all gets back to a basic self-centeredness in which people do not think about the ramifications of their actions on themselves or others, nor do they care. | |
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Nay Nay
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| It is not the Baby Boomers who have done this, it is their children. You still see the Boomers roaming around in their RVs and taking in the snow bird lifestyle. It is their children whom they taught to be "free" (of responsibility and sensibility). This economic state (as Alpha noted) has come from an adopted attitude of non-commitment. If we can walk away from marriages, why not debt?? And who cares how much money you owe if you have all that you want? Can't take it with you anyway, can you? Now, where did I hear that before....oh yes, from our politicians!! You see, pre WW2, there was no national debt. (See http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/1714/usdebt18bk.gif for proof.) So....who was it that influenced who to rack up debt?? I say that the government lead the way, first by removing gold as the standard for the dollar, and then by plundering our incomes for political warfare. Anywho, until we ALL learn to balance a budge and save a little from every dollar, we're all totally screwed. | |
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RE: Nay Nay
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| Look at the end of Clinton's administration. It was starting to level off until we got this "president" (I use the term loosely) Now it's back to shooting upwards. Note my comment below and the groups I mention. Check it out. | ||
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Lines at the Bank
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I started to think about depression era behavior this morning when I was watching a report on CNN. I saw a huge line outside a bank in Pasedena, CA that apparently was in trouble. Folks were very concerned about their accounts and planned on cashing out. Sure, the FDIC insures your deposits up to $100K (and $200K for joint accounts), but if this is something that is going to recur, how long can they hold up? I wonder if I should start digging holes for my Mason jars? |
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Sense of entitlement....
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| My generation,(I was born in 1961), had to work for everything we have. No body gave us anything. Today's 20 & 30 somethings have this sense of entitlement that everyone owes them. So does this mean nothing is their fault either? | |
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Blame
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We can spread the blame evenly around, but the fact remains that this country is in a world of hurt. I think the mason jars might be a good idea. My husband and I are wondering if we should redo his pension-most of it is being handled by Edward Jones. Will we have enough to last the rest of our lives, or will we have to go back to work and start all over again? That's if jobs will be available. And I've got news for the Democrats, Republicans, Libertarians, etc. Your party doesn't have all the answers. Until we can get over this polarization and work together it's just going to get worse and worse. Actually, Google "Bilderberg" or "Tri-Lateral Commission" and you will see who really rules the world. |
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re:
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Taking your money out of banks will only cause our economy to falter even more won't it? I dunno, but the mason jar idea is a little extreme IMO. One advantage that we have compared to those who lived during the depression is that we can kind of forcast our losses. Totally different situation and you can't really compare our time to theirs. |
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RE: re:
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CGM - you're right that we're in a different situation compared to back then. I believe it is a fallacy to think we have some kind of "forecasting" advantage now vs. Great Depression era - often times those forecasts are way off the mark. Sure the SEC and Fed Reserve have built in safeguards to help thwart a precipitous drop in the market, but I think the economy has new challenges that can't necessarily be controlled by policy and regulation. Faster forms of media and news distribution, the energy crunch, less land and larger world population are some things that come to mind that weren't in the cards 80 years ago. Crazy Rush Limbaugh reports on a regular basis that our economic problems are just a myth of the "drive-by media" and he goes on to cite obscure semi-positive data that doesn't have anything to do with the situation. What a fool. |
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I think this post and the responses in it answer the original question.
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Why is this happening and who can I blame. Heck it must be GW Bush. Heck no it's Limbaugh. Can't blame Clinton..... Why is it that we as Americans can not see more than 3 seconds in front of our face? Why do we prefer to point fingers instead of compromise. We don't want compromise because we can't take the credit for the original idea. We don't want to look toward the future because we want it now. We need to leave Iraq. The war is taking too long. Why isn't Bin Laden dead yet?........ Too much whining and not enough ideating just creates more whining. My Dad was a very assute man. He would say "If you're not the solution, you're part of the problem." Instead of having Uncle Sam bail us out, let's bail out our selves. If you see someone you can give assistance to, Give it. If you're cut off in traffic, let it go...... |
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RE: I think this post and the responses in it answer the original question.
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Direct hit, there. I personally like the one where they blame the folks too young to run for office. What are WE doing to make this situation worse? What are WE doing to make it better? Time to stop looking up the block and seeing liberal/conservative/christian/muslim/black/white and start seeing our neighbors. Time to ask where we as a community will be when we have our "Katrina moment" whether it is earthquakes or financial ruin. Are we going to starve to death waiting for the Fed to show up and make it right? Or will we instead find it in ourselves to be responsible individuals and community members that can be an example to the rest of the country? And if it's the latter, why wait until the water starts to rise? I'm not very hopeful at this stage, but maybe a little struggle will give us some incentive. As Montanans we already have a head start there. Grandpa always said "what this country needs is a good depression." I'm starting to understand what he means. |
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Self Fulfilling Prophesy
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A recession is defined by two consecutive quarters of negative growth in GDP (gross domestic product). The GDP for Quarter 2 of 2008 will be released on July 31, 2008; Quarter 4 of 2007 had an increase in GDP of .6% and Quarter 1 of 2008 showed an increase of 1.0%; by definition we are not in a recession. The media does fuel the freak-out fires. Anyone who remembers Econ 101 has got to remember that the economy is cyclical, and on an 8 year cycle at that; funny how it coincides with election years. Also, wars are historically good for the economy, WWII helped to lift the US out of our Great Depression. The FDIC was created in 1933 in response to the bank failures that spiraled our demise into the Great Depression. It insures up to $100,000.00 of a depositors money per bank. If you've got $200,000.00 split it up between two banks. $300,000.00 split it between 3; etc. So, if you really want to help our plateaued economy slip on over to the dark, recession side take all of your money out of the bank, quit spending and hide in a hole. |
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RE: Self Fulfilling Prophesy
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This is not exactly a text book cyclical fluctuation...The S&P is down about 20ish% for the year...and the year isn't over yet. I think GDP is only one way of measuring the health of the economy. This particular war has not and WILL NOT help our economy. It's not like we're converting factories to build tanks and putting every breathing soul into a great paying job to support the effort like in WWII. Those days are gone. There are hardly any factories left to do such a thing. How about mortgage failures, increasing unemployment, never ending war, mega-high federal debt, increasing food, healthcare and fuel costs...all at the same time in ways never seen before. Not during the formation of our country. Not during the early wars. Not during the Great Depression (although it was close) Not after 9/11. Ever. It's like the perfect storm. We are slowly imploding. You are in denial of you think the FDIC would truly be able to handle a mass withdrawl like was seen in the 30's. Like I said in an earlier post, if the FDIC has to pay out billions, if not trillions, (and it might), the Fed won't be able to print money fast enough to keep up. I say give it a year then we'll see...you know I'm right. |
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RE: Self Fulfilling Prophesy
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| I agree that we are not in a recession by definition, but I think that we are experiencing an economic downturn due in large part to a lack of consumer confidence. The presidential election plays a significant role and the constant bombardment of negative messages of media. | ||
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scare tactics
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recession.. global warming.. anyone remember Y2K??? my step-mom stocked up at costco, and made my dad buy 2 generators! we're smarter than this. |
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RE: scare tactics
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The problem with the examples provided is that they are fallacies...although this global warming thing appears to be real - human caused or not. What is going on now is reality. Speaking of Y2K - I spent the New year's eve night in a factory on a folding chair in a big dusty room staring at a computer monitor for a client who was worried that their powerhouse was going to flatline at midnight. Lucky me - the lights stayed on. Denial is also a driving factor to our economic demise, like using credit cards and tapping into your 401(k) to get by from month to month instead of modifying their lifestyle to what they can afford. My spouse tells me that at her job, many (I mean like over 10) highly paid staff have indicated that they are doing just that because of inflated cost of the essentials (gas, food, taxes) and stagnant wages. Unbelievable, but a fact. We're smarter than this, alright. |
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No denial...
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Danie006, I'm not in denial, not at all. I completely understand that our circumstances are nothing like the Great Depression, however, I don't buy into the doom and gloom philosophy. As far as the mortgage 'crisis'...puh-leez! I worked in the mortgage industry for 3.5 years, when River Rock in Belgrade began development post-9/11 I remember saying to my husband "just watch...in 5 years all those people who couldn't afford crap before will be defaulting on their mortgages" and I'm right. Nobody can sit in front of me and tell me that they had no idea that their ARM payments were going to go up. There's both a fool and a sleeze-bag born everyday....anybody who thinks they're responsible enough for a mortgage needs to be responsible enough to read what they're signing!! And they should have shopped around and done some research before signing up with Joe "I screw 'em" Mortgage. What it really boils down to is being fiscally responsible. Live within your means and if you're not, start to! |
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"Crisis" is still a crisis
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Yep - I agree. Too many people who couldn't really afford it bought homes with an ARM. That is still not a discount on the fact that Fannie and Freddie are on the verge of collapse to the tune of $5 trillion! Think about the millions of folks who carry a huge credit card balance and make the minimum payments because that's all they can afford. I'm old enough to remember when it was very, very difficult to get a credit card. But thanks to deregulation and the constant push to maintain/grow our capitalist economy, everyone is in debt up to their ears. Just heard on the radio that the CPI is up at it's highest in 21 years...and you think my notion about another depression, or in the least a serious recession, is a fallacy? |
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RE: "Crisis" is still a crisis
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No, I don't think it's a fallacy. I'm just stating that we are not in a recession yet, by economic terms and definitions. Frankly I'd rather have a capitalist economy than any other one; capitalism drives innovation and creative thinking. It also rewards those who work hard to make their dreams come true. It seems that my generation (those pesky 30 somethings) and the 20 somethings seem to think they need everything NOW; that they shouldn't have to work for it...hence...mortgage crisis, credit card debt up to high heaven, etc...trust me, there are plenty of us out here who worked hard and continue to work hard for what we have, we pay our bills, we live within our means and we don't need a luxury vehicle...that's for when your 50 anyway!! LOL!! But really; I'm an optimist and until I see numbers indicating a recession I'm not going to worry about it. It is what it is and I'll cross that bridge when I get there... |
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RE: "Crisis" is still a crisis
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"It seems that my generation (those pesky 30 somethings) and the 20 somethings seem to think they need everything NOW; that they shouldn't have to work for it...hence...mortgage crisis, credit card debt up to high heaven, etc..." I agree mitchelmauschen. I don't want to blame the younger generations for the whole economy. They are our kids...but where did they learn their financial behavior? But...like you said, my son has to have everything NOW....he has a nicer house than us, a bigger HDTV every year or two, a new HHR, a new mini-van, every gaming system made,(Nintendo, PS3, X-box), a boat, a $700 grill, a $500 push mower, oh...and 3 kids...etc,etc.... on less than half the salary that his mom & I make. I don't see how in the world he does it. He's refinanced his home 3 times in 5 years and the banks keep letting him do it. So I don't really know who to blame. |
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Common Sense and the Lack Thereof
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Stupidy has led our country to its' current state. Stupid loans, stupid subsidies, stupid energy policy...Blame who you want...the younger generation is just following the example set by the country...Live for today, forget tomorrow! Well tomorrow is close, and it's not pretty. We are a smart country...time to stop being so damn selfish and get smart! And short-sighted capitalism is to blame...ethics, long term planning, and a dash of neighborly socialism would go a long way. |
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M a y b e s o b u t . . .
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| The author of this post forgot to mention the natural disasters this nation has been subject to during the last decade. Hurricanes, floods, fires, tornadoes create losses that cost insurance industry resources which we all pay for as well as rescue/mission worker resources. He named all the things under human control but neglected such things as honeybee colony collapse disorder, in the news again today. Without the pollinators, foods like apples & squash don't grow. Farmers & gardeners know how important they are. Not everything is in our hands. | |
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I dont' know about you.....
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| I can't speak for anyone but myself, but things are pretty good for me personally. I would surely like to have more money and less worry, but that will always be the case. It's really a matter of making good decisions instead of bad ones. I agree that there are people who are struggling and having a hard time making it, but I also see those many of those same people sit back and complain instead of fixing their own problems. We each have a situation that may be good or bad, but it's our own responsibility to repair it if that's what's needed. I'm tired of hearing the complaints and crying about how bad Bush has been for them and how the war in Iraq is their excuse for a crappy lifestyle. There are way too many people wishing for another Woodstock. If you want to drop acid, smoke weed, and have sex with hippies you don't need a war to justify it. All you have to do is go grab a bag of dope and an dirty hippy and find a park somewhere. I would rather that you just go do it instead of trying to get community support. I have a life ahead of me that will continue to get better and better and the times that it doesn't it's usually because of the choices that I make. If you want healthcare go get a part-time job at Starbucks. If you want to make more money go figure out how instead of thinking that you'll just be able to coast into a high-paying job. If you don't like gas prices quit using it or stop supporting groups that are choking off domestic production. If you don't like your life change it, but you'll have much better success if you do it on your own instead of trying to change the world to meet your own expectations. I'm not interested in changing the world to suit your needs and I doubt that it will change to meet mine. It's disturbing to me that so few people understand the way the world works and they somehow think that they have insight into global policy that is on the level of those who have made it their life's work. It's no coincidence that we haven't experienced more terrorist attacks on US soil. If you don't know what you're talking about, but choose to anyway it makes you look like a fool in all that you do. I'm going to have a great weekend and look forward to many more thanks to people who are way more knowledgeable about national defense and protecting my security than me all by myself. | |
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Not all of us
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| I just wanted to say it is unfair to stereotype all "young people" as selfish and irresponsible. I put myself through college, worked two/three jobs every summer, bought my own (old) car. Nowadays,I work my butt off, still drive the same car, live in a basement apartment,I don't own anything remotely luxurious, and I don't get or accept handouts from my parents. I am working to build a good life for myself, and I understand the concept of responsibility and working for everything you have better than a lot of older folks I know. Trust me, I have never had a "sense of entitlement" to anything I have not earned. | |
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RE: Not all of us
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I think it's awesome that you are one of us responsible 20-30 somethings but you've got to admit, most of us aren't. I'm a 30-something (okay, I'm 31...there, now you all know my true age) and from what I've seen from my peers in this valley is atrocious....they're mortgaged up to their eyeballs in their fancy pants house in Elk Grove, their minimum credit card payments are equal to another mortgage payment, they all have two expensive new cars, they dine out all the time and they look down their noses at anyone who doesn't wallow in opulence like they do. My husband and I also put ourselves through college, and we actually finished our educations so we have something to show for our efforts and monies, we also work our butts off, we only buy new vehicles when we have to (read: every 4 - 5 years), we bought our house in Belgrade back in 2004 (before the real estate market shot through the roof), we do own a boat because we enjoy the summer time activity of being at the lake (we do not ski, snowboard, snowmobile or do any winter activity) and our parents certainly don't give us handouts either... Glad to know there's more of us 'responsible' younger folks on here!! |
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RE: Not all of us
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Good for you Working Girl and mitchelmauschen. Sorry if I lumped you into a category you didn't deserve. More than just young people are doing what mitchelmaushen described. It just seems that where I live, young people, especially, are mortgaged to the hilt, two new cars, credit cards maxed out and they ARE taking handouts from their parents...just to keep their heads above water. There is nothing wwrong with having nice things and toys of all kinds...if you can afford it. I told my son a long time ago that I would help him out any way I possilbly can when he's in trouble....but...I also told him I would never bail him out of anything that was his own fault or irresponsibility. (i.e. he's never going to get a house or car or boat payment from us). He can sell off some his Wii's or PS3's or TV's if he's in need of $$. Mean old fart...aren't I? |
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RE: Not all of us
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I'll second alamator's remarks. It seems to be extremely difficult to avoid the pressure to live an opulent lifestyle in this country. In most cases, thanks to the availability of easy credit, look at the majority of huge (and gaudy, IMO)homes being built, the variety and number of luxury vehicles on the road, the ease to travel/vacation, etc, all purchased on credit or every cent earned. My brother and his wife live like this and they are miserable because they are strung out despite having successful careers. Too much work, deep in debt, no way out in sight...but they still manage to make the boat, camper, two motorcycle, two car, big house payments every month and they wallow in "stuff" packed into their house. For the first time last month he asked us to lend them money so they could make ends meet for the month (as I looked over his shoulder at the 2008 Ford F-250 he parked in my driveway...he's a pharmaceutical sales person and she's an attorney!) It was a bitter sweet request since last Christmas, his wife was putting us down in a round about way for our old cars and little house. Now they come to us for help! Real nice. My family almost fell into that trap about a decade ago and luckily, we got out. We built the fancy house and drove nice vehicles. The trade off meant long hours at work and not spending time with family. Is/was it worth it? Not in a million years. We realized that early in our lives before we got sucked in deeper. So, I sold the business I owned and my spouse accepted a job transfer to get away from the pressure of trying to keep up with the Jones's. Today, we live in a very modest home we purchased for less than the median value of real estate in the Gallatin Valley. We are fortunate enough to give away much of our income to charity. I drive a vehicle built 18 years ago and my spouse drives a little unimposing car. We would never go back to the way we lived again. It was pretty wasteful when I think about it. I apologize for tooting my horn, but it is possible to avoid the spending trap if a person is able to adjust their expectation of what's important in life. When the economy heads down, or disaster strikes (think 9/11) our government tells out to run out and spend more of what we don't have....money. The economic stimulus money completely baffles me at a time when we are at war, totally in debt up to our collective ears...and Mr. Obama is talking about doling out another round. When will it stop? It is hard not to think that this is the beginning of the end in a way, dancing around while Rome is burning as we tend to do these days. |
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RE: Not all of us
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The "easy credit" is the major part of this problem...IMHO. When my son moved from home to upstate NY at the age of 20, he'd been at his apartment and job only 9 months when he told me he was buying a house. I told him he had to earn some credit and it would take time, he couldn't just go to the house store and get a house. Well guess what? In a depressed housing market in upstate NY, he basically went to the house store and got an open end $60,000 loan. Very little money down and all of the sudden, he's a home owner making mortgage payments about the same as his rent...plus taxes...(that's another story!) When he got behind on payments, (lost his job, brand new car, new baby...), he expected the bank to let it go because..."He's a good guy and has a kid". I don't think so Scooter. I place most of this "housing mortgage crisis" directly on the banks. You can't run a country like ENRON and expect it to prosper. Instead of the banks putting the brakes on easy loans and credit cards, they got easier. They got their money and it will eventually get paid down the road. Waaaay down the road. Around here...in NC...shady car and motorcycle dealers make it way too easy to buy. All you need is one recent pay stub and a phone number. That's it. When they sell the bike, they sell the title to a bank, then another bank, then another bank to where, if you want to pay off the car or bike, they can't find the title. Everybody gets their commission, everyone's happy. This is going to bite us in the butt...bad...eventually. I'm no economic expert, but I don't see how bailing out the BANKS is going to help. The foxes have raided the henhouse and the govt is going to give them more hens? |
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Wow this is an excellent tread!
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