Prosocuting war crimes with military tribunals...

In the following article I will try to present to you a reason why we need military tribunals to prosecute war crimes.  However, the war crimes I would like prosecuted are not being carried out by people with the names of Mohammad, Shiek, or originate from some far off middle eastern country, in fact the war crimes I am talking about are being carried out by people with names like Smith, Jones, or Anderson.  These people don't walk around with turbans, dress in robes or have olive skin, in stead they wear baseball caps, dress in jeans and t-shirts, and have white skin.  If you were ever to read about these people in the newspaper they would not originate from places like Syria, Saudi Arabia, or Pakistan, but they would come from the USA, England or another part of Europe.  

You are probably just getting ready to call me un patriotic, anti American, or a host of other names I dare not repeat in good company.  Recently a member from the Council of American Islamic Relations came to MSU to speak.  While he was speaking I sat through it, and he mentioned something that I found very interesting.  He said, and I paraphrase, If someone is doing something wrong, whether it is a radical Muslim, radical Christian or who ever, the first people to tell them that it is wrong should be their peers.  Should be their fellow Muslims, fellow Christians, or fellow Americans.  

So here it goes, in 2001 after Sept 11 the president, George W Bush said that you are accountable for your actions and the excuse I was simply following orders won't work.  So why are we not arresting the people on our side who commit war crimes?  Is it because they are on our side, we allow them to break the law?  Isn't that how genocide happens, when the Rwanda genocide was happening, how many people sat back and said, "Yes it is wrong to brutally murder someone because they are from a different tribe, but the other side is committing horrible crimes so it justifies us doing horrible things to them.  And when you think about it, the people doing horrible crimes are on our side so we will let it pass."  Now lets put that same thought pattern into the war on terror, when the average American says "Yes the US government is committing war crimes, but its to keep the US safer and because the terrorists know how to play the system, so we will look past the fact they are holding people with out trial, kidnapping, set up black sites, and send prisoners to places that we know they will be faced with torture."  Because the people committing these war crimes come with badges and hide behind the veil of patriotism we don't go after them.

i remember from history a term that I think we should apply here, it is called Rule of Law.  Which in a nut shell in ancient times meant no one is above the law.  I find it funny that conservative lawyers and talk show hosts rail on and rail about the need for military tribunals for "terrorists" yet not once do they call for them for US government agents who break the law that they have sworn to up hold and protect.  So that is why I am calling for us to start rounding up CIA agents, private contractors, and other members of the government both military and civilian and prosecute them for war crimes.  If they say that they were just following orders we will simply point to the quote from the commander in chief who said EVERYONE is responsible for their actions and no one can claim they were just following orders and then we will sentence them and lock them up for life. 

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posted on Sun, Mar 07, 2010 06:55 PM
last updated on Sun, Mar 07, 2010 06:55 PM
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what about.... byindependent4 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Where do the people that gave the orders fit into this? Quite frankly they're more responsible than the "little guys" that carried out the orders, as far as the CIA is concerned. When it comes to the private contractors, and Blackwater specifically, I don't understand why all of those people aren't in jail. It is shocking what Blackwater has been allowed to get away with. They are the definition of war profiteers, and have broken so many laws it's disgusting. Obama claimed he was going to clamp down on that stuff, but they keep getting more contracts, and nobody is willing to stand up and prosecute those bastards.
RE: what about.... byjohnbrownraider4 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
B/c blackwater is a bunch of Ex CIA and special ops dudes...with ties high up in the Republican and Democratic parties.
what about.... bycwrite4 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Prosecuting not prosocuting. Duh
Condense it, JB. byEd.4 months ago (4 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
That's a lot of writing just for you to say: "It's time for me to remind everyone again that I still don't like policemen."
RE: Condense it, JB. byindependent4 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse)
are you saying then that you don't believe war criminals should be prosecuted?
RE: Condense it, JB. byEd.4 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse)
Tell me where in my post I said that or even suggested it.
RE: Condense it, JB. byindependent4 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse)
tell me where the OP said or even suggested that he doesn't like policemen?
RE: Condense it, JB. byEd.4 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse)
You either haven't been around very long or you're not paying attention. JB makes that point very clear about every 3-4 weeks.
Points of agreement bybelgradepsc4 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
"the first people to tell them that it is wrong should be their peers"... This is very true. Had more Republicans given resistance to the expansion of executive authority and questioned the "evidence" that got us into the Iraq war, this country would be better off today.
RE: POINTS OF AGREEMENT byCitizenpain4 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
The info on WMD's came from a bunch of Clinton holdovers in the CIA, thats according to Bob Woodward (not a republican).

It really would'nt have mattered who the president was at the time it would have all gone down the same.

Do you not find it interesting that the largest arms dealer on the planet runs around promoting democracy? WAR IS A RACKET! And if you are of the mind that republicans and democrats make the world go round; think again.
RE: RE: POINTS OF AGREEMENT bybelgradepsc4 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse)
I don't believe that at all. There was a strong interest in invading Iraq throughout the 90's by the exact same people who held power in the administration. I recall the criticism of Bush's dad was that he didn't go into Baghdad, and the reason he didn't was because he and his advisors knew the power vacuum it would create.

The advisors Bush II relied on were not the Bush I advisors. Bush I had realistic advisors, far less ideological (remember, he wasn't "conservative" enough?). Bush II was known for being far more ideological. Bush I had responsible advisors, Bush II had people willing to market a war and take advantage of 9/11 to pursue goals they already were determined to do.

Neo conservatives run around promoting democracy, because they think it is a good way to extend our military reach around the world. I don't know what arms dealer you are talking about.

Republicans and Democrats make US policy go around, that has an influence on what happens in the world.

The problem is that it was not good policy, it was not discussed, and instead of debating the points, proponents of the Iraq war simply accused their opponents of being weak on terrorism, or sympathizing with Saddam, or anti American. They got us in the war, and now they think they are free to call people socialists, fascists, etc... notice a pattern?

The problems this country is in is because of the exact same people who sit around complaining about how the rest of us are trying to clean up the problem.
POINTS OF AGREEMENT byCitizenpain4 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
YOUR WATCHING TO MANY CHRIS MATTHEWS RE-RUNS!
RE: POINTS OF AGREEMENT bybelgradepsc4 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse)
I'm guessing you are one of those people who should feel responsible for putting this country in the mess it is in.

I don't watch Chris Matthews
The English Language byPlantGeek4 months ago (2 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
Dude, it's p-r-o-s-e-c-u-t-i-n-g. And while I'm at it, Citizenpain, it's "You're watching too many..." Really, if you want your message to be taken seriously, then learn proper spelling and grammar.
PLEASE ACCEPT MY HUMBLE APOLOGY, byCitizenpain4 months ago (3 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
I will try my best to improve on spelling and grammar, and I hope this is just a warning, I don't have the money for another ticket.

belgradepsc > "I'm guessing you are one of those people who should feel responsible for putting this country in the mess it is in"

No, i'm the person who said "WAR IS A RACKET" three posts up.
No Ed...your wrong byjohnbrownraider4 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse) (reply)
See Ed, all I try to do is look at a view and point out the silliness of it. If we are prosecuting war crimes lets prosecute all war crimes not just the enemies. If we are chasing criminals lets chase all criminals, the reason the police fall victim to my writing is b/c they really do it to themselves.

They say they are protecting us against criminals, and are first on scene ready with constitutionally infringing laws, guns, and handcuffs when they think a citizen has broken the law. But what happens when the police break it, they dive behind the police union and no one is arrested, charged and thrown into jail. This mightily amuses me, so I poke fun at them for this horrible delinquency.
RE: No Ed...your wrong byEd.4 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
"...your wrong...". Let me 1st refer you to PG's comments 2 posts up.

Your comments do not reflect any amusement nor do they qualify as poking fun...not one ever has. The first two sentences of your last paragraph are good examples. You might want to let the rest of us in on which "...constitutionally infringing laws..." you have in mind. They are the laws under which you live.
RE: No Ed...your wrong byjohnbrownraider4 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Ok Ed,
which constitutionally infringing laws:
*warrant less wire taps
*tracking people by cell phones
*Holding people with out trials
*Injunction laws
*Holding people with out charging them.
The list really goes on and on
RE: No Ed...your wrong byEd.4 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
You don't like the laws, so you attack the folks who enforce them. Some have been judged OK by the SCOTUS, but you don't attack them. All apply only to citizens of the US, and are deemed necessary for national security. Some are just a matter of interpretation. But, your point is valid. If these laws are abused, the abuse should be prosecuted. Your attitude seems to be that if the law you don't like is applied, then it's your job to criticize and demean those who enforce it.
RE: No Ed...your wrong byjohnbrownraider4 months ago (0 votes) (report abuse)
Your right Ed, I don't like the laws and yes I do attack the people who enforce them you know why? Because there was this little guy named Adolf Eichmann. Who during his defense his claim was that he was merely following orders, including this quote "I never did anything, great or small, without obtaining in advance express instructions from Adolf Hitler or any of my superiors."

See Ed, if you don't know history, let me inform you, Adolf Eichmann was hung for his crimes. Even though he claimed all he did was run the train system, he transported good from point A to point B, whether it be tanks and guns to the battle field or jews to concentration camps, his only crime was having an excellent sense of organization.

Ed, my attitude is this, we pass laws that specifically violate peoples constitutional rights, no one disagrees on this point, some people simply sit back and allow it to happen b/c they think that giving up rights will some how make them safer. Yes Ed, if you pass laws that take freedoms granted to us, then it is my job to criticize them, and I will criticize the people enforcing them.

I will criticize the police as being little Eichmanns. Are you saying that you don't hold the Iranian Revolutionary Guard as a evil organization, because really they are just following orders from a radical government and they can't be held responsible for their actions. What about the oppressive police state in N. Korea, they are just following orders from their leader. But some how those people are different, they are inherently evil while our police are inherently good, only because you say so right?

Lets look at what you wrote, "All apply only to citizens of the US, and are deemed necessary for national security." No they don't all apply only to citizens of the US, the CIA has kidnapped people from various countries and held them with out trials in black sites around the globe. They have kidnapped suspected terrorists and sent them to countries to be tortured in places like Syria. Did you know Ed that that is a war crime, to send someone force ably to a place where you know they will be subject to torture. The FBI and even local police have used cell phone tracking of both US citizens and foreign nationals. Injunction laws have been used all through California to keep people from assembly and restricting their movements.

So in closing, my opinion is that we should abide by the constitution, instead of like you sitting by and allowing people to strip us of our rights in the name of protection.
RE: No Ed...your wrong byEd.4 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse)
It's been said that you should spend as much time with a college freshman as you can while he knows it all before he becomes a sophomore and finds out he doesn't. Get back with us next year, JB.
RE: No Ed...your wrong byjohnbrownraider4 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse)
wow Ed, I actually am a college Sophomore. But oh well, no point in debating when the opposing view can't come up with one good thing to say, but instead finds silly little saying to justify their senile, out of date views on life, maybe its time to get out of the house smell the fresh air.....
RE: No Ed...your wrong byEd.4 months ago (1 votes) (report abuse)
Guess you got me there...I can't argue w/ a closed mind, particularly one as immature as yours. Apparently you didn't learn anything as a freshman, but there's still a chance. I remember being 18-19 and thinking I had the answer to everything. I just hope you don't find yourself in need of a law enforcement officer before you grow up a little more...you may have to eat your words.